F. George McDuffee wrote:
I would suggest that this is not a new product/project as similar
weather vanes have been around for 200 years or more.

Why not check and see how the people did it in the past as their
techniques must have worked and lasted.
...

It's obvious now that so many considerations are coming up: this should be
researched. When we were thinking "We'll just solder this together" it
seemed easy enough.

Thanks,
Bob

I have two electric irons that were made for sheet-metal work. One is 350 W;
the other is 300 W. You need a *big* iron to solder copper sheet. I've also
used two or even three furnace-heated soldering coppers simultaneously for
that work. The big electric iron is better for most of us.

... You are not likely
to approach that overall strength in copper, or even 5,000 psi, with
mechanical fasteners, which load only a very small area of the sheet.

BTW, my uncle was quite expert at soldering copper stills during
Prohibition, which he did to supplement his paltry salary as a shop teacher
in public school. He made it clear to me that tinning was absolutely the way
to go with any sheet-metal work that was more involved than a simple
straight lap. Copper whiskey stills were soldered with lead-bearing solder
by using double folds -- an especially tricky thing to solder, which was
almost impossible to do without tinning the spots where you wanted the
solder to stick.

Ed Huntress wrote:
I have two electric irons that were made for sheet-metal work. One is 350
W; the other is 300 W. You need a *big* iron to solder copper sheet. I've
also used two or even three furnace-heated soldering coppers
simultaneously for that work. The big electric iron is better for most of
us.

100w seemed small to me, but I thought that Jim meant that he had used
100w iron on copper sheet.

... You are not likely to approach that overall strength in copper, or
even 5,000 psi, with mechanical fasteners, which load only a very small
area of the sheet.

True, but this IS a weathervane - how much strength could it need (famous
last words). Or, we could could the rivets to get it assembled & then
solder.

BTW, my uncle was quite expert at soldering copper stills during
Prohibition, which he did to supplement his paltry salary as a shop
teacher in public school. He made it clear to me that tinning was
absolutely the way to go with any sheet-metal work that was more involved
than a simple straight lap. Copper whiskey stills were soldered with
lead-bearing solder by using double folds -- an especially tricky thing
to solder, which was almost impossible to do without tinning the spots
where you wanted the solder to stick.

Cool uncle.

One commonly used masking substance (often called "anti-flux") is
yellow ocher. You can get it from any of the jewelry supply places,
....

Thanks. That's something that I'd hadn't heard of.

Michael Koblic wrote:
If there are more than one joint I would avoid soft solder: The heating of
the piece becomes critical and I have nearly lost my marbles while
soldering
one joint with the other joints coming apart simultaneously.
...
I have had good success silver soldering using MAPP gas only with a
Bernzomatic torch. I use the lowest melting point alloy.

Wouldn't silver solder have the same problem with previous joints coming
undone? Ideally you would have a progression of solders with decreasing
melting points.

There may be other issues with exposing soft-solder joints to weather.

Well, they use soft solder on copper gutters, or don't they?

"Bob Engelhardt" <bobengelha...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:h4hp2301qpl@news2.newsguy.com...





Jim Wilkins wrote:
I made one piece larger and hammered a right angle flange, trimmed the
flat edge on the other piece to fit inside it, then folded the flange
over a little at a time. ...

OK - like this:

      \        /
       \      /
      \ \    /
       \ \  /
        \ \/
         \/
or this

  \            /
   \          /
    \ \      /
     \ \    /
      \ \  /
       \ \/

The problem is keeping the edges planar so
they fit together after hammering the shape. I didn't get it right at
first but was able to fold over the flange at the few places that met,
then work around the edges to bring the rest in. The curved shape
wasn't strong enough to withstand squeezing the pieces together with
clamps. ...

Oh, sure - the problem is that it's a closed space & you can't get inside
to back up the spot you're working on.  Jeez, that must be frustrating.

These days I have temperature controlled soldering irons, ...
Previously I used a soldering gun or a 100W iron for larger jobs ...

Temperature controlled is probably not in the picture, but I have a big
electric iron that is at least 100w.

The electric iron localizes the heat well enough to control the molten
area. ...

An iron is starting to sound a lot better than a torch.

Thanks,
Bob

I have two electric irons that were made for sheet-metal work. One is 350 W;
the other is 300 W. You need a *big* iron to solder copper sheet. I've also
used two or even three furnace-heated soldering coppers simultaneously for
that work. The big electric iron is better for most of us.

As for the tensile strength of conventional soft solders, they run around
5,000 psi. Likewise for their shear strength, which, in well-designed
joints, is the more likely mode in which they'll be loaded. High-silver and
tin/silver solders made for work where food is involved can be stronger. Sn
95/ Sb 5 has tensile and shear strength of 8,000 psi +. You are not likely
to approach that overall strength in copper, or even 5,000 psi, with
mechanical fasteners, which load only a very small area of the sheet.

BTW, my uncle was quite expert at soldering copper stills during
Prohibition, which he did to supplement his paltry salary as a shop teacher
in public school. He made it clear to me that tinning was absolutely the way
to go with any sheet-metal work that was more involved than a simple
straight lap. Copper whiskey stills were soldered with lead-bearing solder
by using double folds -- an especially tricky thing to solder, which was
almost impossible to do without tinning the spots where you wanted the
solder to stick.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
A friend is making a copper weather vane. Basically a silhouette, but
with 2 sides, each of which will have some 3 dimensionality. The 2
sides need to be joined at the edges.

He is talking about brazing, but I feel that for the effort & cost, it
is overkill and soft solder would be adequate and sooo much easier. I'm
pretty sure that he does not have an acetylene torch, or access
to one. MAPP/propylene yes.

If there are more than one joint I would avoid soft solder: The heating of
the piece becomes critical and I have nearly lost my marbles while soldering
one joint with the other joints coming apart simultaneously. There may be
other issues with exposing soft-solder joints to weather.

...
I, too, have amused myself by splicing
solder. It's really not hard once you get the touch.
.

On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 13:12:44 -0700, Michael Koblic wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
A friend is making a copper weather vane. Basically a silhouette, but
with 2 sides, each of which will have some 3 dimensionality. The 2
sides need to be joined at the edges.

He is talking about brazing, but I feel that for the effort & cost, it
is overkill and soft solder would be adequate and sooo much easier. I'm
pretty sure that he does not have an acetylene torch, or access
to one. MAPP/propylene yes.

If there are more than one joint I would avoid soft solder: The heating
of
the piece becomes critical and I have nearly lost my marbles while
soldering
one joint with the other joints coming apart simultaneously. There may be
other issues with exposing soft-solder joints to weather.

You need a heat sink between the joint you're soldering and the previous
joints. Maybe a couple of pieses of scrap copper, or even aluminum,
clamped around the metal near the joint, to absorb the head and dissipate
it before it melts the other joints.

Good Luck!
Rich

"Bob Engelhardt" <bobengelha...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:h4hp2301qpl@news2.newsguy.com...





Jim Wilkins wrote:
I made one piece larger and hammered a right angle flange, trimmed the
flat edge on the other piece to fit inside it, then folded the flange
over a little at a time. ...

OK - like this:

\ /
\ /
\ \ /
\ \ /
\ \/
\/
or this

\ /
\ /
\ \ /
\ \ /
\ \ /
\ \/

The problem is keeping the edges planar so
they fit together after hammering the shape. I didn't get it right at
first but was able to fold over the flange at the few places that met,
then work around the edges to bring the rest in. The curved shape
wasn't strong enough to withstand squeezing the pieces together with
clamps. ...

Oh, sure - the problem is that it's a closed space & you can't get
inside
to back up the spot you're working on. Jeez, that must be frustrating.

These days I have temperature controlled soldering irons, ...
Previously I used a soldering gun or a 100W iron for larger jobs ...

Temperature controlled is probably not in the picture, but I have a big
electric iron that is at least 100w.

The electric iron localizes the heat well enough to control the molten
area. ...

An iron is starting to sound a lot better than a torch.

Thanks,
Bob

I have two electric irons that were made for sheet-metal work. One is 350
W;
the other is 300 W. You need a *big* iron to solder copper sheet. I've
also
used two or even three furnace-heated soldering coppers simultaneously for
that work. The big electric iron is better for most of us.

As for the tensile strength of conventional soft solders, they run around
5,000 psi. Likewise for their shear strength, which, in well-designed
joints, is the more likely mode in which they'll be loaded. High-silver
and
tin/silver solders made for work where food is involved can be stronger.
Sn
95/ Sb 5 has tensile and shear strength of 8,000 psi +. You are not likely
to approach that overall strength in copper, or even 5,000 psi, with
mechanical fasteners, which load only a very small area of the sheet.

BTW, my uncle was quite expert at soldering copper stills during
Prohibition, which he did to supplement his paltry salary as a shop
teacher
in public school. He made it clear to me that tinning was absolutely the
way
to go with any sheet-metal work that was more involved than a simple
straight lap. Copper whiskey stills were soldered with lead-bearing solder
by using double folds -- an especially tricky thing to solder, which was
almost impossible to do without tinning the spots where you wanted the
solder to stick.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For large chunks of sheet, a large soldering copper is hard to beat.
I inherited a bucket full. The old-timers used to use kerosene or
gasoline blowtorches to heat them, most of the torches had a rest for
the copper's shank. A propane torch could be used for heating, given
a solid rest for the iron. Makes even a 300 watt iron look sick. But
the user has to know when to clean them, when to tin them and
everything has to be just so. Got to have a tinning block, too, a cube
of ammonium chloride, for tinning the irons. Tinning the work
beforehand is almost mandatory, the only time I've gotten away without
it is when using some patented solder paste that had powdered solder
in with the flux. Worked well but was expensive. Both surfaces have
..to be absolutely clean and shiny, whatever method is used for
soldering. No fingerprints, either.

For stop-off, I've used a talc stick like the welders use for marking
out, works fine. Read about that in Brownell's Gunsmith Kinks.