If you have bought and paid for an item through Ebay, the seller is
under a legal obiligation to see that you receive the merchandise you
bought and to insure that you receive it in a safe and timely manner.
Otherwise it is breach of contract and possibily fraud...if it crosses
state lines (and with Ebay it does), the Feds will take an interest in
the problem if the amount is high enough.

Again small claims court is your friend...and the first step.

TMT

J wrote:
It seems like proving anything in the legal system is impossible for me.
I've tried the legal system a few times.

The police always loose the police report. The police say that even if
the
person is caught with my property, I have no way to prove that they stole
it
or that they knew that the property was stolen.

For trespassing the judge states "trespassing is only a misdemeanor". If
the
person is receiving an mental SSI check and doesn't work then they can't
be
held accountable for their actions.

The legal system never seemed to work for me.

I keep some dogs that bark a lot and that seems to work best for me.


"Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_tools@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1162518171.932014.12040@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Ebay has a lot of good people on it....and it has alot of bad ones too.

One of the big problems with sellers is that buyers let them get away
with it.

A completed auction is a contract...and enforceable under law.

Defrauding a buyer is just that...fraud...and depending on the amount
involved is a felony if prosecuted.

Anyone who have tried to cheat me (and there have been very few) become
my personal project in seeing to it that they are held responsible for
their obiligations.

As for shipping broken equipment, that is a tough call. All the
shippers at one time or another have really bad days with your packages
taking the brunt of it. What distrubs me is when they try to wiggle out
of the insurance claims....and again contract law is your friend. Small
claims court is the first step and if the amount is high enough, fraud
carries a felony penalty.

In regards to one out of three items of yours that a seller had sold,
he was selling stolen property since the merchandise was legally yours.
I would have made that fact very clear and if he did not make the
situation good to my satisfaction, my next stop would have been the
local police department to file a stolen property report.

TMT

J wrote:
I purchased an Olympus microscope and emailed the seller everyday
asking
if
he had shipped my microscope. He never answered my emails so after 10
days,
I filed a PayPal complaint. Almost right away the seller emailed me
and
said
he had the flu. The other people that purchased items the same day got
their
items and left positive feedback. I know the seller is full of it so
I'm
not
going to answer his emails. He didn't answer mine.

I sometimes sell a few items on eBay and people have started asking to
remove a parts and sell the parts to them. They say that the buyer
will
never notice the missing parts. They make statements like "I can be
very
persistent".

I purchased 3 items and drove 100 miles to pick the items up. The
seller
said he only had two of the three items because someone made him an
offer
he
couldn't refuse.

One of the eBay sellers favorite money makers is to sell an item with
a
picture of an item that is not broken. They send the buyer a broken
item.
Then they can file an insurance claim and make good money.

I used to like eBay.

eBay used to not be so bad. Why is eBay getting so corrupt?

Gregor.Overney@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162624403.000634.32880@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Regarding your statement "Only use your credit card for Ebay
purchases"
and the part about pulling the plug on a payment using the
"power" of
Paypal and/or a credit card company, I have to raise some
concerns.

Gregor:

Your concerns are welcomed.

In this case, you recommend one should provide a seller who
cheats on
eBay with credit card number and residential address?

If you pay with a credit card through Paypal, my clear
instruction from informed others is that the seller doesn't get
your credit card number. Anytime you list your contact
particulars on Ebay and anytime anyone ships to you, you are free
to specify an address and to think about the opportunities that
may provide the seller in many circumstances which I have no time
or inclination to cover here.

- Sometimes, I
hear that people have problems fighting with their credit card
companies to proof that certain charges on their credit card
statements
are incorrect. I do not believe much in consumer protection
provided by
credit card companies. It sounds good on paper, but it is less
than
useful in court.

Frankly, from my own sour experience, in some cases quite
different from the kind we are now discussing, I fully agree with
you. The reality is that the bigger customer you are of a credit
card company, the more attention you will get. No surprise there.
As well, reports again from aware sources also recommend American
Express as an entity known for its ferocious customer support in
dealing with merchants in all situations. So, the "personality"
of the credit card company is an additional factor in buyer
protection.

But in the variety of instances we are discussing, when the kind
of documentation previously indicated as essential is obtained,
the disappointed buyer will have, in balance,
an exceptionally strong hand to work from.

Do you believe in the merits of Paypal?

I would like to believe in a market full of competitive services
that offer better
results. Find me an alternative. Paypal has its problems which
are almost endlessly beaten to death on the Internet. But from
the one time I talked with them over a snafu, I found that issue
amenably resolved after a clear and rationally detailed
explanation of my difficulty.

I don't. Is it not possible
that once one pulled the plug on a credit or Paypal payment,
one is
actually legally obligated to pay damages if one fails to proof
in
court that one has been cheated?

The idea is to have proof. If your credit card agency agrees with
what evidence you
demonstrate and annuls the payment, the seller has an uphill
fight. And if Paypal later
comes in and threatens to penalize the seller by voiding his
ability to use their services in all the ensuing profitable
transactions he forsees because of an infraction you have
established according to Paypal's satisfaction, do you thing the
seller will be foaming for a fight with the buyer after the buyer
returns the unsatisfactory item in question?

If the merchandise you got wasn't received as described and as
advertisments and correspondence warranted, it is not your fault
as a buyer. If the purchase was broken in shipment, you will be
amused to know that the Ebay seller in standard transactions is
legally responsible in any case whether insurance was obtained or
not or whether he explicitly offered that as an option to the
buyer and the buyer declined to pay for it. Check Ebay and follow
up with newsgroup searches. You are supposed to get what you paid
for and if you don't, tough for the seller.

And, usually, one must proof this in
courts local to the seller's residence. CA for CA, WA for WA,
etc.

Can you cite specific, authoritative URLs and chapter and verse
here? I would welcome those specifics.

Regarding prematurely pulling the plug on a credit card payment
offers
the seller the option to pay $80-$200 to a collection agency
and, at
least for months, can mess up someone's credit rating quite a
bit.
Moreover, to proof that a part was actually flawed, one must
provide
statements made by expert witnesses, which must show up in
court. Now
that costs a bundle.

And going to court would throwing good money after bad for a
person who faces
overwhelming logical oppositon. I would like to have concrete
citations again illustrating the prevalence of disgruntled
sellers taking their time to go to court, paying court costs,
paying for service of subpoenas and subpoenas duces tecum,
risking the possibility or
probabilty of not being able to serve the other litigant in time
for the court date, etcetera,
after a credit card company and Ebay or Paypal has logged in on
the side of a buyer of
defective merchandise. Are there nutcases who would find this a
channel for their outrage? Sure. Would I love to face an enraged
nutcase in court with a calm broadside of
insuperable evidence? Absolutely. And would I be content with the
slim-to-none chances of ever having to experience this very, very
unlikely happenstance? You bet.

If one gets cheated, one must carefully estimate the cost
involved to
get back out of this mess. Pulling the plug on a payment can
lead to
even more serious problems.

If that is your conclusion in general, for all the reasons in my
two allied posts, I demur.
But if your concerns have not been diminished, you may want to
consider retaining escrow services available at an additional
cost to assuage them.

I will, however, make an addition to a statement in my prior post
and solicit other ideas in addition. When photographing the box
and unpacked item as delivered, it would be wise to get some
corroboratory indicators in the picture outside of the time stamp
on a digital camera. If the deliveryman has a company or agency
ID that can be placed in the pictures, that would be excellent
when accompanied by notation of a name. If the ID is unavailable
or inconvenient another possibility for an indicator item
distinctive of a deliveryman's presence would be, say, the
electronic logging terminal (perhaps with pertinently displayed
details) that many private express companies use or photographing
the merchandise against the background of the delivery vehicle.
Another idea would be to incorporate a dated newspaper front page
in certain circumstances. Can anyone suggest other items for
inclusion to distinctly show the presence of the deliveryman or
other important particulars? Other ideas would be to ask the
deliveryman to hold the objects for photographing or to place a
hand in the picture but if anyone has additional constructive
remarks here, they would be welcome.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

Hello, Edward:

Good points. - Let me elaborate on Paypal for a few moments.
Using
Paypal protects the credit card information from sellers. So
far so
good. Paypal is also quick in pulling cash back out of the
seller's
bank account and Paypal offers some sort of free "damage"
insurance.

Almost great. - But why should the seller not transfer the
funds via
cash withdrawal from the account before Paypal was able to try
to get
the money back?

using Paypal is most certainly better than giving the credit
card
information to the seller.

your last post.

But again, neither Paypal, eBay nor any credit card company is
legally
obligated to do anything. It's a legal contract between buyer
and
seller and a legal contract between the shipper and who ever
authorized
him to ship the package.

neither legally binding nor in any way useable as credible
evidence in
court.

broke the contract.

seller in question.

through it at his very own risk. There are no general
recommendations
such as suggesting Paypal for all eBay purchases. There are
some very
trustworthy sellers, who sell great microscope parts, that, for
obvious
reasons, do not accept Paypal.

Gregor.Overney@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162683113.150673.187700@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello, Edward:

Hello Gregor:

I did want to and have wanted to direct your attention to a very
catchy old
song based on the initials you use, see "Little GTO". "Little" is
not used there or meant here as a diminutive but as an
affectionate charaterization. If you haven't heard this "muscle
car" tune you would like it.


Good points. - Let me elaborate on Paypal for a few moments.
Using
Paypal protects the credit card information from sellers. So
far so
good. Paypal is also quick in pulling cash back out of the
seller's
bank account and Paypal offers some sort of free "damage"
insurance.

Paypal insurance terms only extend to direct electronic
withdrawals from your
financial institution, something one would never wisely assent
to.
Even then, there are significant flyspeck-print restrictions on
the number of
transactions, positive feedback percentage, seller's country and
more which really weaken the promised protection. There is
another element possibly deserving address here I may be able to
make further comment on after checking.

Almost great. - But why should the seller not transfer the
funds via
cash withdrawal from the account before Paypal was able to try
to get
the money back?

They do that extremely rarely, especially if one has been wise in
selecting a seller with excellent feedback tied to substantial
sales numbers acquired over a duration. Be careful, some scammers
get fine feedback and high transaction numbers by buying it in a
very short time via cronies on 10 cent sales. Checking past
seller transactions is imperative.


Why should a seller even accept Paypal?

The sellers known to me all came to realize this was a pragmatic
necessity if you want
to get a bigger selection of buyers and bigger prices. Also, it
can be real quick, allowing business to be move more rapidly.

- Nevertheless,
using Paypal is most certainly better than giving the credit
card
information to the seller.

Agreed and agreed.

I thought that's what you recommended in
your last post.

No, whether that was either inferred or allowed by any haziness
in my formulation. A credit card through Paypal is best.


But again, neither Paypal, eBay nor any credit card company is
legally
obligated to do anything. It's a legal contract between buyer
and
seller and a legal contract between the shipper and who ever
authorized
him to ship the package.

Nonetheless, they do as a regular business practice to protect
their reputations and business. And Ebay dictates the liability
of the parties conducting transactions on their site.

Everything else is just services that are
neither legally binding nor in any way useable as credible
evidence in
court.

I think what the services find based on the evidence assembled by
you and subpoenable exhibits available from them would be
availing in litigation.

Only because Paypal refunded money does not mean that the seller
broke the contract.

It means you got your money back. Beyond that lies fiscal
meaninglessness.

Again, I think the chances of a buyer being sued after a credit
transaction revocation by the card company and associated
affirmative interventions by Paypal or Ebay once the item in
contention has been restored to the seller approaches
infinitesimal degrees of probability.

I neglected to also make prior mention of the fact that a seller
of an unsatisfactory item attempting to engage a collection
agency after a chargeback reimbursement and finding against him
by the entities previously mentioned better really enjoy
experiencing self-abuse.


Again, which action is recommended depends on the
seller in question.

Sure.

eBay is just the gate. The buyer has to walk
through it at his very own risk. There are no general
recommendations
such as suggesting Paypal for all eBay purchases. There are
some very
trustworthy sellers, who sell great microscope parts, that, for
obvious
reasons, do not accept Paypal.

Life is alternatives and choices. If you've known a trusty soul
for years, worry about him suddenly departing in the middle of an
arrangement leaving you to deal with Uncle Lefty.

Thanks again and regards,

Edward Hennessey

Isn't it an irony? The more these types of "markets" are used, the more
they deteriorate and the more they must be policed. But the problem
with the entire Internet is very similar. When it was only available
for few, it was actually quite useful. In the meantime, it is easier to
find garbage and misinformation in cyberspace than well edited
information. I guess the useful information content of the Internet is
inversely proportional to the amount of ads one must endure when
surfing this medium. And the amount of ads is, very obviously, a direct
measure for how many people actually use it. The entire Internet,
including eBay as a tiny section of it, follows strictly the second law
of thermodynamics.

To summarize this, eBay is just one example of a big mess floating in
cyberspace. - I really blame our educational system to have now all
kids use Internet search engines to do many of their homework. I guess,
the next generations will not even remember how a real bookstore or any
type of retail store looked like. "If you need a lamp, check eBay "

Stupid question, how many employees does eBay have on its payroll? Oh,
yes, eBay is big business for everybody selling his junk in his garage
for top dollars. I wonder what the tax revenue is on these sales, how
this will improve our "decaying" school system in our neighborhood,
and how things like eBay will provide jobs for a local community.

Don't worry, I am not running for Congress. - Hmm, what does all
this have to do with microscopy? Yes, I use eBay to buy parts for
microscopes that I can't get otherwise. But I use local stores for
everything else.

Just my two cents (as usual!).

Gregor

J wrote:
I purchased an Olympus microscope and emailed the seller everyday asking
if
he had shipped my microscope. He never answered my emails so after 10
days,
I filed a PayPal complaint. Almost right away the seller emailed me and
said
he had the flu. The other people that purchased items the same day got
their
items and left positive feedback. I know the seller is full of it so I'm
not
going to answer his emails. He didn't answer mine.

I sometimes sell a few items on eBay and people have started asking to
remove a parts and sell the parts to them. They say that the buyer will
never notice the missing parts. They make statements like "I can be very
persistent".

I purchased 3 items and drove 100 miles to pick the items up. The seller
said he only had two of the three items because someone made him an offer
he
couldn't refuse.

One of the eBay sellers favorite money makers is to sell an item with a
picture of an item that is not broken. They send the buyer a broken item.
Then they can file an insurance claim and make good money.

I used to like eBay.

eBay used to not be so bad. Why is eBay getting so corrupt?

I did want to and have wanted to direct your attention to a very
catchy old song based on the initials you use, see "Little GTO".
....

Both eBay and Papal have one primary goal, to make more money. Everything
else is not very important to them. Papal and eBay increase their fees
often. I don't know why they haven't started charging the buyer a fee. They
could make even more money. If a seller's credit card is denied once and his
eBay fees aren't paid, he is suspended immediately.

I haven't read the Complete eBay and Papal agreement but I suspect that I
have signed all of my rights away.

I did want to and have wanted to direct your attention to a very
catchy old song based on the initials you use, see "Little GTO".
...

Yes, I was a little boy in 1964. Middle names are often selected to
form attention-grabing initials.

Cheers,

Gregor

I did want to and have wanted to direct your attention to a
very
catchy old song based on the initials you use, see "Little
GTO".
...

Yes, I was a little boy in 1964. Middle names are often
selected to
form attention-grabing initials.

Cheers,

Gregor

Gregor.Overney@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162683113.150673.187700@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello, Edward:

Hello Gregor:

I did want to and have wanted to direct your attention to a
very
catchy old
song based on the initials you use, see "Little GTO". "Little"
is
not used there or meant here as a diminutive but as an
affectionate charaterization. If you haven't heard this "muscle
car" tune you would like it.

Good points. - Let me elaborate on Paypal for a few moments.
Using
Paypal protects the credit card information from sellers. So
far so
good. Paypal is also quick in pulling cash back out of the
seller's
bank account and Paypal offers some sort of free "damage"
insurance.

Paypal insurance terms only extend to direct electronic
withdrawals from your
financial institution, something one would never wisely assent
to.
Even then, there are significant flyspeck-print restrictions on
the number of
transactions, positive feedback percentage, seller's country
and
more which really weaken the promised protection. There is
another element possibly deserving address here I may be able
to
make further comment on after checking.