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Science Groups Forum Index » Military - Naval » World's first computer may be even older than thought
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| Jack Linthicum |
 Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:58 pm |
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Based on the concept that the Antikythera Device may have served as a
navigational aid here are some recent pics. Go to the two citations
for color video and still pictures.
Video at the citation/cite, an "imploded" view of the device.
http://www.mogi-vice.com/Antikythera/Antikythera-en.html looks at the
pieces
July 29, 2009 12:59 PM
World's first computer may be even older than thought
Jo Marchant, consultant
From Swiss Army knives to iPhones, it seems we just love fancy gadgets
with as many different functions as possible. And judging from the
ancient Greek Antikythera mechanism, the desire to impress with the
latest multipurpose must-have item goes back at least 2000 years.
This mysterious box of tricks was a portable clockwork computer,
dating from the first or second century BC. Operated by turning a
handle on the side, it modelled the movements of the Sun, Moon and
planets through the sky, sported a local calendar, star calendar and
Moon-phase display, and could even predict eclipses and track the
timing of the Olympic games.
I gave a talk on the device at London's Royal Institution last night.
One new clue I mentioned to the origin of the mechanism comes from the
Olympiad dial - there are six sets of games named on the dial, five of
which have been deciphered so far. Four of them, including the
Olympics, were major games known across the Greek world. But the
fifth, Naa, was much smaller, and would only have been of local
interest.
The Naa games were held in Dodona in northwestern Greece, so Alexander
Jones of the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World in New York
has suggested that the mechanism must have been made by or for someone
from that area.
Intriguingly, this could mean the device is even older than thought.
The inscriptions have been dated to around 100 BC, but according to
Jones the device may have been made at latest in the early second
century BC, because after that the Romans devastated or took over the
Greek colonies in the region, so it's unlikely that people would still
have been using the Greek calendar there.
But the highlight for most of the audience - judging from the
spontaneous round of applause it received - was this breathtaking new
animation (below) of the gearing inside the mechanism. It has been
made by Mogi Vicentini, an Italian astronomer and computer scientist,
and it brings the device to life brilliantly.
Judge for yourself, but I think it shows that the mechanism would hold
its own against the best of today's luxury gadgets.
Jo Marchant is author of Decoding the Heavens, a book about the
Antikythera mechanism. It has been shortlisted for the 2009 Royal
Society Prize for Science Books, and is out now in paperback.
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/07/jo-marcha... |
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| Jack Linthicum |
| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:25 pm |
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On Jul 29, 3:37 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Quote: "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1c54d791-5612-42ea-a590-2764c2a60807@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Based on the concept that the Antikythera Device may have served as a
navigational aid here are some recent pics. Go to the two citations
for color video and still pictures.
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Keith
IIRC it calculates the position of the sun and phases of the moon.
Better reason it's not a navigation device is the likelihood that the
gears would corrode and render it useless.
By some amazing coincidence there will be a conference on this very
weekend on the subject.
The Antikythera Mechanism and its place in the history of science,
technology and ideas
Date:
Friday, 31 July 2009 - 5:30pm - Saturday, 1 August 2009 - 7:30pm
Location:
Budapest University of Technology and Economics
http://www.antikythera-mechanism.gr/node/473 |
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| Jack Linthicum |
| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:34 pm |
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On Jul 29, 5:48 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
<ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Quote: "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9a2201ac-3799-4621-8b2e-
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Keith
IIRC it calculates the position of the sun and phases of the moon.
Which is meat and drink to an astrologer
Better reason it's not a navigation device is the likelihood that the
gears would corrode and render it useless.
I'd love to know how the hell its supposed to HELP navigation
especially when dealing with people who rarely sail out of land
and almost entirely within the Med and Aegean
Keith
That never sail out of sight of land is a total myth, especially by
the 2nd C BC when this thing is supposedly built. Making noon sun line
observations with a known ideal for comparison would be useful in
doing the long distance haul. Also, I'm not sure how it was supposed
to work but one of the rivals for finding longitude in the 18th C was
"lunars". Again with a known standard, which we put in print until the
satellite stuff came into play, provides a check.
Imagine a cargo ship sailing just in daylight, putting ashore every
night, which would require unloading, setting up camp, cooking a
meal,sleeping, getting up, cooking a meal, reloading the ship and
setting sail. |
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| Keith Willshaw |
| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:37 pm |
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"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1c54d791-5612-42ea-a590-2764c2a60807@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Quote: Based on the concept that the Antikythera Device may have served as a
navigational aid here are some recent pics. Go to the two citations
for color video and still pictures.
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Keith |
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| Keith Willshaw |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:48 am |
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Guest
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"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9a2201ac-3799-4621-8b2e-
Quote:
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Keith
IIRC it calculates the position of the sun and phases of the moon.
Which is meat and drink to an astrologer
Quote: Better reason it's not a navigation device is the likelihood that the
gears would corrode and render it useless.
I'd love to know how the hell its supposed to HELP navigation
especially when dealing with people who rarely sail out of land
and almost entirely within the Med and Aegean
Keith |
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| Beausaber |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:33 am |
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On Jul 29, 5:34 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Quote: On Jul 29, 5:48 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9a2201ac-3799-4621-8b2e-
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Keith
IIRC it calculates the position of the sun and phases of the moon.
Which is meat and drink to an astrologer
Better reason it's not a navigation device is the likelihood that the
gears would corrode and render it useless.
I'd love to know how the hell its supposed to HELP navigation
especially when dealing with people who rarely sail out of land
and almost entirely within the Med and Aegean
Keith
That never sail out of sight of land is a total myth,
SNIP
Citations?
especially by
Quote: the 2nd C BC when this thing is supposedly built. Making noon sun line
observations with a known ideal for comparison would be useful in
doing the long distance haul. Also, I'm not sure how it was supposed
to work but one of the rivals for finding longitude in the 18th C was
"lunars".
SNIP
Which was so impossible for the average seaman to use that the
chronomter was invented
See "Longitude" by Dava Sobel
Again with a known standard, which we put in print until the
Quote: satellite stuff came into play, provides a check.
Imagine a cargo ship sailing just in daylight, putting ashore every
night, which would require unloading, setting up camp, cooking a
meal,sleeping, getting up, cooking a meal, reloading the ship and
setting sail.
SNIP
1) Who said sailing within sight of land means you only do it in
daylight? I've sailed at night many times within sight of land.
Preferably with a lady and a bottle of wine...
2) If you do choose to only sail by day, why would you have to unload
the ship? To beach it? You see, the ancients had these amazing
inventions called "anchors" and "small boats". No need to drive her
ashore
3) Setting up a barbecue ashore and sleeping on solid ground is a lot
easier and more comfortable than trying to do so aboard a small
sailing vessel. Plus you don't run the risk of setting your vessel on
fire, You want to know how tough the Vikings were? They managed long
passages in the open Atlantic on cold rations and wet hide sleeping
baga on top of the cargo
"But whenever possible Viking sailors preferred to follow coastal
routes, where they could put ashore to cook and sleep each night." The
Vikings by James Graham-Campbell and Dafydd Kidd |
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| Derek Lyons |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:07 am |
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"Keith Willshaw" <keith@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1c54d791-5612-42ea-a590-2764c2a60807@k1g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
Based on the concept that the Antikythera Device may have served as a
navigational aid here are some recent pics. Go to the two citations
for color video and still pictures.
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Archeologists often cannot restrain the impulse to speculate,
archeolists in the pay of a TV studio don't even try.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL |
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| Mark Borgerson |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:36 am |
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In article <7aad1b7e-0754-4da7-a433-
e148fec4be0d@w41g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, jacklinthicum@earthlink.net
says...
Quote: On Jul 29, 5:48 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9a2201ac-3799-4621-8b2e-
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Keith
IIRC it calculates the position of the sun and phases of the moon.
Which is meat and drink to an astrologer
Better reason it's not a navigation device is the likelihood that the
gears would corrode and render it useless.
I'd love to know how the hell its supposed to HELP navigation
especially when dealing with people who rarely sail out of land
and almost entirely within the Med and Aegean
Keith
That never sail out of sight of land is a total myth, especially by
the 2nd C BC when this thing is supposedly built. Making noon sun line
observations with a known ideal for comparison would be useful in
doing the long distance haul. Also, I'm not sure how it was supposed
to work but one of the rivals for finding longitude in the 18th C was
"lunars". Again with a known standard, which we put in print until the
satellite stuff came into play, provides a check.
Imagine a cargo ship sailing just in daylight, putting ashore every
night, which would require unloading, setting up camp, cooking a
meal,sleeping, getting up, cooking a meal, reloading the ship and
setting sail.
Why would they unload the ship? I can see making camp ashore,
particularly if you don't want a cooking fire on board---but unloading
cargo seems a bit much.
Mark Borgerson |
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| William Hamblen |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:49 am |
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On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:34:40 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
<jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote:
Quote: That never sail out of sight of land is a total myth, especially by
the 2nd C BC when this thing is supposedly built. Making noon sun line
observations with a known ideal for comparison would be useful in
doing the long distance haul. Also, I'm not sure how it was supposed
to work but one of the rivals for finding longitude in the 18th C was
"lunars". Again with a known standard, which we put in print until the
satellite stuff came into play, provides a check.
Imagine a cargo ship sailing just in daylight, putting ashore every
night, which would require unloading, setting up camp, cooking a
meal,sleeping, getting up, cooking a meal, reloading the ship and
setting sail.
Mathematical astronomy and shipboard instruments did not get good
enough to use lunar distances until the 18th century. To figure your
longitude to one degree you need to know the position of the Moon to
better than 2 minutes of arc. Newton developed in 1702 a lunar theory
that was the first to give predicted lunar positions with the needed
accuracy. Hadley demonstrated his sextant in 1732. Those were the
ingredients you needed for lunar distances. Prior to that you
determined longitude at sea by dead reckoning. Ancient sailors did
the same. Experienced seamen who knew their trade routes would know
and use all sorts of details of currents and so on for navigation. I
expect that they wouldn't lay up unless the weather was unfavorable.
A Google search turned up a book, "Homeric Seafaring" by Samuel Mark,
that looks interesting, if expensive (sixty bucks).
Bud |
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| Jack Linthicum |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:50 am |
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On Jul 29, 11:33 pm, Beausaber <ren23...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: On Jul 29, 5:34 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net
wrote:
On Jul 29, 5:48 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
ke...@nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9a2201ac-3799-4621-8b2e-
Its neither a computer nor a navigational aid. Its an orrery, a clockwork
model of the part of the solar system A lot of that 'reconstruction'
is speculative based on the corroded mechanism recovered from
the bottom of the sea but it seems likley to have been for an astrologer.
Keith
IIRC it calculates the position of the sun and phases of the moon.
Which is meat and drink to an astrologer
Better reason it's not a navigation device is the likelihood that the
gears would corrode and render it useless.
I'd love to know how the hell its supposed to HELP navigation
especially when dealing with people who rarely sail out of land
and almost entirely within the Med and Aegean
Keith
That never sail out of sight of land is a total myth,
SNIP
Citations?
especially by
the 2nd C BC when this thing is supposedly built. Making noon sun line
observations with a known ideal for comparison would be useful in
doing the long distance haul. Also, I'm not sure how it was supposed
to work but one of the rivals for finding longitude in the 18th C was
"lunars".
SNIP
Which was so impossible for the average seaman to use that the
chronomter was invented
See "Longitude" by Dava Sobel
Again with a known standard, which we put in print until the
satellite stuff came into play, provides a check.
Imagine a cargo ship sailing just in daylight, putting ashore every
night, which would require unloading, setting up camp, cooking a
meal,sleeping, getting up, cooking a meal, reloading the ship and
setting sail.
SNIP
1) Who said sailing within sight of land means you only do it in
daylight? I've sailed at night many times within sight of land.
Preferably with a lady and a bottle of wine...
2) If you do choose to only sail by day, why would you have to unload
the ship? To beach it? You see, the ancients had these amazing
inventions called "anchors" and "small boats". No need to drive her
ashore
3) Setting up a barbecue ashore and sleeping on solid ground is a lot
easier and more comfortable than trying to do so aboard a small
sailing vessel. Plus you don't run the risk of setting your vessel on
fire, You want to know how tough the Vikings were? They managed long
passages in the open Atlantic on cold rations and wet hide sleeping
baga on top of the cargo
"But whenever possible Viking sailors preferred to follow coastal
routes, where they could put ashore to cook and sleep each night." The
Vikings by James Graham-Campbell and Dafydd Kidd
J. Rouge, Ships and Fleets of the Ancient Mediterranean is the source
for debunking the hauling up on the beach every night. He
distinguishes between large and small ships, the smaller being
unloaded to facilitate refloating.
The literature on ship navigation in the ancient Mediterranean is
small, I used
http://nautarch.tamu.edu/pdf-files/Davis-MA2001.pdf
"Navigation in the Ancient Eastern Mediterranean" by Danny Lee Davis,
an MA thesis for the Texas A&M graduate studies program
Chapters V and VI (roughly page 155 and 185) cover the ideas
associated with ancient navigation in summary. |
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| Keith Willshaw |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:39 am |
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"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7aad1b7e-0754-4da7-a433-e148fec4be0d@w41g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 29, 5:48 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
Quote:
I'd love to know how the hell its supposed to HELP navigation
especially when dealing with people who rarely sail out of land
and almost entirely within the Med and Aegean
Keith
That never sail out of sight of land is a total myth, especially by
the 2nd C BC when this thing is supposedly built.
Good job I didnt say that then eh
Quote: Making noon sun line
observations with a known ideal for comparison would be useful in
doing the long distance haul.
You dont need an orrery to get latitude and you cant get longitude from it
Quote: Also, I'm not sure how it was supposed
to work but one of the rivals for finding longitude in the 18th C was
"lunars".
For which needed you to measure the observed position of the moon relative
to known stars, this clockwork model doesnt help there.
Had they found an astrolabe that would be different.
Quote: Again with a known standard, which we put in print until the
satellite stuff came into play, provides a check.
Lunars went out of use by 1850
Quote: Imagine a cargo ship sailing just in daylight, putting ashore every
night, which would require unloading, setting up camp, cooking a
meal,sleeping, getting up, cooking a meal, reloading the ship and
setting sail.
Why would I want to do that ?
Keith |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:08 pm |
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In article
<7aad1b7e-0754-4da7-a433-e148fec4be0d@w41g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
jacklinthicum@earthlink.net (Jack Linthicum) wrote:
Quote: but one of the rivals for finding longitude in the 18th C was
"lunars".
The concept is simple. Using a sextant you measure the position of the
moon compared with known stars in your location. You then look up the
position of the moon against the stars at a base location, Greenwich in
this case, from that it is possible to calculate the time difference
between the two points. The actual practice is more complicated. It took
Flamstead (the first Royal Astronomer) thirty years IIRC to produce
accurate enough star maps and measure the moons orbit to an extent that
was useful. I have not done the calculations myself but most sources say
they took four hours on average. Still the method remained in use as a
check on chronometers.
Ken Young |
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