H Pylori in Bloodstream - how to eradicate?

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Message

RFR

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:23 am

Guest

Hi Experts :-)

About 2 years ago I was hit by an H Pylori
invasion. The minimum infection measurement was
1.0 U/ml. Mine was a whopping 8. I was given 2
antibiotics (together) and a drug called
Ranitidine and that cleared it up.

Now I have just had another test and I still have
some - 2.6 U/mg.

I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What
alternatives are there?

TIA

trigonometry1972@gmail.co

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:40 pm

Guest

On Jul 14, 10:23 pm, RFR <R...@Nudding.con> wrote:

Quote:

Reinfection is a common event. I have a "theory" that
I might try if I were in your situation. Do the antibiotic
and the acid reducer again and then introduce betaine
HCL to increase stomach acidity and hopefully prevent
reinfection. Understand this counter to "conventional medicine"
but it may help according "alternative medicine." Or
at least it helps in the context of some peoples heartburn
and reflux symptoms according to some alternative medicine
and advanced medicine providers. As I recall long
term infection with Helicobacter pylori can cause gastric
lining atropy as can by the way long term use of PPI meds
as I recall.

Further I've seen various suggestions on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
as I recall. I get numerous hits with combined search of "Helicobacter
pylori"
and "herbal." Finding the specific herb maybe a challenge and
determining
the dose may only the guidance of tradition.

Some propose that taking active culture foods may have a preventative
effect though I am not aware of any proper studies to that effect.
But then again I haven't looked recently.

I'd suppose some would propose d-limonene as being of benefit
as way to deal with heartburn symptoms.

Apparently there is evidence in birds that betaine improves immune
function when test subjects (the birds) were infected with certain
microbes.

I'll suggest you also get an appointment with an alternative medicine
provider such as a longevity Doctor.

Zrupfter

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:39 pm

Guest

Quote:

Depending on the type of strain of the bug, and how resistant
it is, you could try Sulforaphane caps.
Also, try to maintain adequate amounts of stomach acid, since
H. Pylori creates a low-acid environment in which it is able to
survive better, or repopulate again after antibiotic therapy.

Chewing Mastic Gum may be another approach by reducing the
chance of the bug migrating from your gums to the stomach,
which might have happened following your supposed 'cure' the
first time you were infected.

Rosemary Brown

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:17 am

Guest

Quote:

Hi Experts :-)

About 2 years ago I was hit by an H Pylori invasion. The minimum infection
measurement was 1.0 U/ml. Mine was a whopping 8. I was given 2 antibiotics
(together) and a drug called Ranitidine and that cleared it up.

Now I have just had another test and I still have some - 2.6 U/mg.

I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What alternatives are there?

TIA

Mark Thorson

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:33 am

Guest

RFR wrote:

Quote:

I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What
alternatives are there?

See U.S. Patent 5,188,738.

www.google.com/patents?id=k1YdAAAAEBAJ

http://www.onbecomingpositive.com/?cat=30

trigonometry1972@gmail.co

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:06 am

Guest

On Jul 15, 9:09 pm, RFR <R...@Nudding.con> wrote:

Quote:

trigonometry1...@gmail.com | wrote:
On Jul 14, 10:23 pm, RFR <R...@Nudding.con> wrote:
Hi Experts :-)

About 2 years ago I was hit by an H Pylori
invasion. The minimum infection measurement was
1.0 U/ml. Mine was a whopping 8. I was given 2
antibiotics (together) and a drug called
Ranitidine and that cleared it up.

Now I have just had another test and I still have
some - 2.6 U/mg.

I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What
alternatives are there?

TIA

Thanks Trig for that great response.

Reinfection is a common event. I have a "theory" that
I might try if I were in your situation. Do the antibiotic
and the acid reducer again and then introduce betaine
HCL to increase stomach acidity and hopefully prevent
reinfection. Understand this counter to "conventional medicine"
but it may help according "alternative medicine." Or
at least it helps in the context of some peoples heartburn
and reflux symptoms according to some alternative medicine
and advanced medicine providers. As I recall long
term infection with Helicobacter pylori can cause gastric
lining atropy as can by the way long term use of PPI meds
as I recall.

I'm all in favor of the alternatives. I'm getting
tired of the drug companies' salespeople MDs.

I've been taking about 500 mg of betaine
hydrochloride every day for more than a year.
Possibly the dose is not enough.

Further I've seen various suggestions onhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
as I recall. I get numerous hits with combined search of "Helicobacter
pylori" and "herbal." Finding the specific herb maybe a challenge and
determining the dose may only the guidance of tradition.

I just searched there using h pylori +iodine
and had 16 hits. That should keep me out of
mischief for a day or two Wink

Thanks.

Some of the "hits' are misses. I saw only one on the
h pylori and iodine search I deemed modestly relevant.

Quote:

Some propose that taking active culture foods may have a preventative
effect though I am not aware of any proper studies to that effect.
But then again I haven't looked recently.

More checking to do.

I'd suppose some would propose d-limonene as being of benefit
as way to deal with heartburn symptoms.

Apparently there is evidence in birds that betaine improves immune
function when test subjects (the birds) were infected with certain
microbes.

I like the notion of the iodine mentioned in the
previous post. Will pursue that one.

I'll suggest you also get an appointment with an alternative medicine
provider such as a longevity Doctor.

They're hard to find. I have had 2 MDs in 3 years
and am about to dump the second one. AARP did some
searches and made a recommendation for #3.

Will let you know how all this goes. Thanks again.

I take a larger dose than 500 mg. Today I've taken 4 capsules
with my first meal and 4 capsules with my last meal. Each
capsules contains 648 mg of betaine HCL plus some pepsin.
And I also took a B-supplement that contains 500 of betaine base.

PubMed can be a figurative godsend. And sometimes one more
additional idea or search word makes the difference ....at least it
did for me. At other times a good old fashioned Google search
will have things PubMed doesn't have or is only apparent with
a deep search. Sometimes a Google groups search can be useful
though the search engine seems to have degraded with the
inclusion of the non-Usenet groups, IMO.

If you hit on something that works and keeps working tell someone.
See it as revenge on the drug companies or an application of
of the Golden Rule........ in both ways it feels good.

There is the Rule of Gold (or those with it)
and then there is the Golden Rule...........Trig

RFR

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:26 am

Guest

Zrupfter wrote:

Quote:

"RFR" <RFR@Nudding.con> wrote in message
About 2 years ago I was hit by an H Pylori
invasion. The minimum infection measurement was
1.0 U/ml. Mine was a whopping 8. I was given 2
antibiotics (together) and a drug called
Ranitidine and that cleared it up.

Now I have just had another test and I still have
some - 2.6 U/mg.

I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What
alternatives are there?

TIA
__
Depending on the type of strain of the bug, and how resistant
it is, you could try Sulforaphane caps.
Also, try to maintain adequate amounts of stomach acid, since
H. Pylori creates a low-acid environment in which it is able to
survive better, or repopulate again after antibiotic therapy.

Chewing Mastic Gum may be another approach by reducing the
chance of the bug migrating from your gums to the stomach,
which might have happened following your supposed 'cure' the
first time you were infected.

Thanks Z.

I'm eating so much cabbage and broccoli that I'm
surprised they haven't
fixed the problem. Maybe I need greater
concentrations. Will look into that one.

Seems like I need something to wipe them daily.
There was an article in the
misc.health.alternative group in late June about
the possibility of iodine replacing antibiotics.
Now that's what interests me.

Mark Thorson

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:44 am

Guest

RFR wrote:

Quote:

You took part in that iodine vs antibiotic
discussion about 3 weeks ago. Had you forgotton it
or just thought it wouldn't help?

Internal iodine is a bad idea. I'd go with the
antibiotics.

Of course, if you're determined to resist drug
therapy, there's always this:

http://www.waynegreen.com/wayne/says.html#silver

For $45 he'll sell you a kit to make your own
collodial silver for pennies a day.

RFR

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:09 am

Guest

trigonometry1972@gmail.com | wrote:

Quote:

On Jul 14, 10:23 pm, RFR <R...@Nudding.con> wrote:
Hi Experts :-)

About 2 years ago I was hit by an H Pylori
invasion. The minimum infection measurement was
1.0 U/ml. Mine was a whopping 8. I was given 2
antibiotics (together) and a drug called
Ranitidine and that cleared it up.

Now I have just had another test and I still have
some - 2.6 U/mg.

I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What
alternatives are there?

TIA

Thanks Trig for that great response.

Quote:

I'm all in favor of the alternatives. I'm getting
tired of the drug companies' salespeople MDs.

I've been taking about 500 mg of betaine
hydrochloride every day for more than a year.
Possibly the dose is not enough.

Quote:

Further I've seen various suggestions on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
as I recall. I get numerous hits with combined search of "Helicobacter
pylori" and "herbal." Finding the specific herb maybe a challenge and
determining the dose may only the guidance of tradition.

I just searched there using h pylori +iodine
and had 16 hits. That should keep me out of
mischief for a day or two Wink

Thanks.

Quote:

Some propose that taking active culture foods may have a preventative
effect though I am not aware of any proper studies to that effect.
But then again I haven't looked recently.

More checking to do.

Quote:

I'd suppose some would propose d-limonene as being of benefit
as way to deal with heartburn symptoms.

Apparently there is evidence in birds that betaine improves immune
function when test subjects (the birds) were infected with certain
microbes.

I like the notion of the iodine mentioned in the
previous post. Will pursue that one.

Quote:

I'll suggest you also get an appointment with an alternative medicine
provider such as a longevity Doctor.

They're hard to find. I have had 2 MDs in 3 years
and am about to dump the second one. AARP did some
searches and made a recommendation for #3.

Will let you know how all this goes. Thanks again.

RFR

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:22 am

Guest

It definitely was a blood test. The first
treatment did work because my digestve system
returned from very uncomfortable to normal. There
has been a gradual decline since that treatment. I
should have monitored it more carefully. Will keep
closer track of it from now on. Thanks for your
interest.

Rosemary Brown wrote:

Quote:

I think you mean the H Pylori was in your stomach..not your blood stream

I agree you have had a re infection,,or more likely it was never eradicated
in the first place..

"RFR" <RFR@Nudding.con> wrote in message
news:7c53t5F26bctpU1@mid.individual.net...
Hi Experts :-)

About 2 years ago I was hit by an H Pylori invasion. The minimum infection
measurement was 1.0 U/ml. Mine was a whopping 8. I was given 2 antibiotics
(together) and a drug called Ranitidine and that cleared it up.

Now I have just had another test and I still have some - 2.6 U/mg.

I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What alternatives are there?

TIA

RFR

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:27 am

Guest

Mark Thorson wrote:

Quote:

RFR wrote:
I want to avoid the antibiotics if I can. What
alternatives are there?

See U.S. Patent 5,188,738.

www.google.com/patents?id=k1YdAAAAEBAJ

http://www.onbecomingpositive.com/?cat=30

Very interesting Mark - what a story!, but not at
all surprising. Those cut-throat drug companies
will do anything to bleed the country dry. It
think it's time for a firing squad ;-)

You took part in that iodine vs antibiotic
discussion about 3 weeks ago. Had you forgotton it
or just thought it wouldn't help?

RFR

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:13 am

Guest

Mark Thorson wrote:

Quote:

RFR wrote:
You took part in that iodine vs antibiotic
discussion about 3 weeks ago. Had you forgotton it
or just thought it wouldn't help?

Internal iodine is a bad idea. I'd go with the
antibiotics.

Of course, if you're determined to resist drug
therapy, there's always this:

http://www.waynegreen.com/wayne/says.html#silver

For $45 he'll sell you a kit to make your own
collodial silver for pennies a day.

Thanks Mark - that was a lightening response. I
have heard many very negative comments about
colloidal silver.

I have found some of Tom's posts and hope someone
might make something of them.
I've been taking lactoferrin supplements for more
than a year now - probably too-small a dose, as
usual :-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Helicobacter pylori requires iron to survive and
propogate in the
body. Antibiotics bind up iron and remove it from
the scenario /
disease process.

Gastritis is caused by increased red blood cell
production and
H.pylori has been found to be associated with
gastritis as per its
association with peptic ulcers.

Sooo IS the erradication of the H.pylori due TO
the sequestration /
elimination OF the .. iron ..?

The article below states .. smoking /
pseudopolycythemia is associated
with decreased ability to clear the pathogen .. ?

Sooo .. does the polycythemia / increased red
blood cells /
erythrocytosis .. PRECEDE .. the colonization OF
the H.pylori .. ? ..
ALLOWING the H.pylori to take and proliferate ..
BY .. causing
gastritis / blood loss .. iron **AVAILABILITY** /
lack of iron
sequestering ABILITY .. ?
----------------------------------------------------

<<snip>>
Smoking and a short duration of treatment are
predictors of
eradication failure.
<<snip>>

Treatment of Helicobacter pylori infection.
Cavallaro LG, Egan B, O'Morain C, Di Mario F
Helicobacter. 2006 Oct ; 11 Suppl 1: 36-9

In clinical practice the recommended treatment
regimens achieve only
an 80%Helicobacter pylori eradication rate and
this rate is lower in
patients who have failed first-line treatment. The
increasing
indications for H. pylori treatment (idiopathic
thrombocytopenia and
iron deficiency anemia) and an increasing trend of
antibiotic
resistance (especially in southern Europe)
emphasize the need for more
effective H. pylori eradication. Smoking and a
short duration of
treatment, especially in patients with functional
dyspepsia, are
predictors of eradication failure. In first line,
the best option
remains the clarithromycin-based regimens but an
extended treatment
duration is now indicated. Following first-line
treatment failure, 14-
day proton pump inhibitor triple therapy employing
alternative
antibiotics or quadruple therapy could be used.
Levofloxacin-based 10-
day triple therapy seems to be an encouraging
strategy following one
or more eradication failures.

Review Infect Immun. 2002 July; 70(7): 3923-3929.
doi: 10.1128/IAI.70.7.3923-3929.2002.
Copyright ? 2002, American Society for Microbiology

---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=128114

Essential Role of Ferritin Pfr in Helicobacter
pylori Iron Metabolism
and Gastric Colonization

Received December 26, 2001; Revised March 19,
2002; Accepted April 2,
2002.
Abstract
The reactivity of the essential element iron
necessitates a concerted
expression of ferritins, which mediate iron
storage in a nonreactive
state. Here we have further established the role
of the Helicobacter
pylori ferritin Pfr in iron metabolism and gastric
colonization. Iron
stored in Pfr enabled H. pylori to multiply under
severe iron
starvation and protected the bacteria from
acid-amplified iron
toxicity, as inactivation of the pfr gene
restricted growth of H.
pylori under these conditions. The lowered total
iron content in the
pfr mutant, which is probably caused by decreased
iron uptake rates,
was also reflected by an increased resistance to
superoxide stress.
Iron induction of Pfr synthesis was clearly
diminished in an H. pylori
feoB mutant, which lacked high-affinity ferrous
iron transport,
confirming that Pfr expression is mediated by
changes in the
cytoplasmic iron pool and not by extracellular
iron. This is well in
agreement with the recent discovery that iron
induces Pfr synthesis by
abolishing Fur-mediated repression of pfr
transcription, which was
further confirmed here by the observation that
iron inhibited the in
vitro binding of recombinant H. pylori Fur to the
pfr promoter region.
The functions of H. pylori Pfr in iron metabolism
are essential for
survival in the gastric mucosa, as the pfr mutant
was unable to
colonize in a Mongolian gerbil-based animal model.
In summary, the pfr
phenotypes observed give new insights into
prokaryotic ferritin
functions and indicate that iron storage and
homeostasis are of
extraordinary importance for H. pylori to survive
in its hostile
natural environment.

----------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------

http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/46/4/577

<<snip>>
These findings lend experimental support to the
use of iron-chelating
agents in the therapy of pneumocystis infections
<<snip>>

Abstract
The in vitro activity of lactoferrins alone and in
combination with
clarithromycin, minocycline and pyrimethamine was
investigated against
three clinical isolates of Pneumocystis carinii.
Susceptibility was
tested by inoculating isolates on to cell
monolayers and determining
the parasite count after 72 h incubation at 37°C.
The culture medium
was supplemented with serial dilutions of each
agent. At 20 mg/L,
bovine lactoferrin, the most active agent,
suppressed the growth of
cystic and trophic forms by >60%. Human
lactoferrin, at the same
concentration, suppressed the growth of cystic and
trophic forms by

Quote:

50%. Lactoferrins at 20 mg/L combined with
clarithromycin 4 mg/L had

high anti-P. carinii activity, with a >90%
decrease in cystic and
trophic form counts. Our study suggests that
lactoferrins may inhibit
P. carinii growth in vitro and act synergically
with other clinically
used compounds. These findings lend experimental
support to the use of
iron-chelating agents in the therapy of
pneumocystis infections.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Zrupfter

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:49 pm

Guest

Quote:

"RFR" <RFR@Nudding.con> wrote

I'm eating so much cabbage and broccoli that I'm
surprised they haven't
fixed the problem. Maybe I need greater
concentrations. Will look into that one.

Seems like I need something to wipe them daily.
There was an article in the
misc.health.alternative group in late June about
the possibility of iodine replacing antibiotics.
Now that's what interests me.

--

You'd have to eat broccoli SPROUTS to get enough sulforaphane
to make a difference. If you supplement sulforaphane caps, you'll
probably have to start at around 2,000 mcg / day for at least a week
or more, and then continue with 200-300 mcg / day for maintenance.

Also keep in mind that some people's gums are infected with H. Pylori,
which is where chewing mastic gum may prevent it from re-infecting
your gut after it appears controlled by whatever means.

I would not go the iodine route. Too many possible complications and
not likely any solid results. However, many of those that are stuck with
H. Pylori due to failed antibiotic therapy seem to do reasonably well by
regularly including glutamic acid, betaine, lemon or lime juice with their
meals.
Personally though, I would try to get rid of H. Pylori by whatever means,
including using antibiotics again, since it's long-term prognosis in SOME
people, especially older ones, isn't very favorable.

RFR

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:49 am

Guest

RFR wrote:

Quote:

Mark Thorson wrote:
RFR wrote:
You took part in that iodine vs antibiotic
discussion about 3 weeks ago. Had you forgotton it
or just thought it wouldn't help?

Internal iodine is a bad idea. I'd go with the
antibiotics.

Of course, if you're determined to resist drug
therapy, there's always this:

http://www.waynegreen.com/wayne/says.html#silver

For $45 he'll sell you a kit to make your own
collodial silver for pennies a day.

Thanks Mark - that was a lightening response. I have heard many very
negative comments about colloidal silver.

I also did some checking on Bob Beck's procedure
and I have my doubts about that too.
I wish the reports on it were true. If I could
borrow one I would try it out but, to buy parts
and assemble it is a lot of work for an uncertain
result.

The Mayo Clinic has the following info about this
problem:

Treatments and drugs

Treatment for H. pylori infection typically
involves a combination of medications to eradicate
H. pylori from your body.

Medications to eliminate H. pylori from your body
Antibiotic medications are used to treat H. pylori
infection. Doctors typically prescribe a
combination of medications, with the hope that
this strategy will help keep H. pylori from
developing a resistance to one particular
medication. You'll likely take two antibiotic
medications for 14 days.

Medications to reduce acid in your stomach
Medications that reduce acid in your stomach may
help enhance the effectiveness of antibiotics.
Acid-reducing medications may also help alleviate
symptoms and promote healing. These medications
include:

* Proton pump inhibitors. These prescription
medications suppress acids by shutting down
"pumps" in acid-producing cells. Examples include
omeprazole (Prilosec), lansoprazole (Prevacid),
pantoprazole (Protonix), rabeprazole (Aciphex) and
esomeprazole (Nexium).
* Histamine (H-2) blockers. These medications
reduce the amount of acid released into your
digestive tract. H-2 blockers include ranitidine
(Zantac), famotidine (Pepcid), cimetidine
(Tagamet) and nizatidine (Axid).

Testing for H. pylori after treatment
Your doctor may recommend that you undergo testing
for H. pylori several weeks after your treatment.
A follow-up breath or stool test may confirm that
the H. pylori bacterium is no longer present in
your body and treatment was successful.

Or follow-up testing may show that treatment was
unsuccessful. In that case, you may undergo
treatment again, receiving a different combination
of antibiotic medications.

Mark Thorson

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:01 am

Guest

RFR wrote:

Quote:

You asked for an alternative to antibiotics, and
I mentioned and gave you links to two different
alternatives.

If you want an alternative that is actually effective
at clearing live bacteria from your bloodstream,
that's an unreasonable request. That's like asking
for an herb to replace insulin, or eye exercises
that will correct near-sightedness.

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