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Recreational Groups Forum Index » Games - Bridge » Responses to Minor-Suit Opening after Weak Jump Overcall
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| Mike S. |
 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:23 pm |
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My partner and I had trouble with the following two bidding sequences
in a recent Club game, and I could find very little in BWS about
responding to a minor-suit opening after an opponent's weak jump
overcall:
1D - (2H) - ?
1D - (3C) - ?
What strength and length should be promised with a minimum raise to 3D
in these sequences? Would the answer be different for partnerships
which play Inverted Minors (as mine does)?
I presume the standard meaning of a 2N response would be 10-12HCPs and
the opponent's suit stopped. 1D - (2H) - 2N.
Should cue-bidding the opponent's major suit ask Opener to rebid 3NT
with a Heart stopper? Or is it a game-invitational raise? For example,
1D - (2H) - 3H. What would the cue-bid of an opponent's minor suit
show? 1D - (3C) - 4C for example.
Is a new suit by Responder a one-round force? Should it promise 5-card
length or just 4, or perhaps nothing more than a stopped suit in search
of a NT game? Should it matter if the new suit is a Major or a Minor
suit? 1D - (2H) - 2S or 1D - (3C) - 3S for example.
Mike S.
Muncie, Indiana |
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| Lorne |
| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:24 am |
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"Mike S." <marathon353@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1160054574.717045.220010@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote: My partner and I had trouble with the following two bidding sequences
in a recent Club game, and I could find very little in BWS about
responding to a minor-suit opening after an opponent's weak jump
overcall:
1D - (2H) - ?
1D - (3C) - ?
What strength and length should be promised with a minimum raise to 3D
in these sequences?
About 7-10 points
Would the answer be different for partnerships
Quote: which play Inverted Minors (as mine does)?
Absolutely not.
Quote:
I presume the standard meaning of a 2N response would be 10-12HCPs and
the opponent's suit stopped. 1D - (2H) - 2N.
Yes
Quote:
Should cue-bidding the opponent's major suit ask Opener to rebid 3NT
with a Heart stopper? Or is it a game-invitational raise? For example,
1D - (2H) - 3H.
If you have a H stop bid 3N, else bid 4D if minimum, 5D if better and cue
bid something if massive.
What would the cue-bid of an opponent's minor suit
Quote: show? 1D - (3C) - 4C for example.
Inviting you to bid 5D (or cue bid if you have a good hand) unless very poor
when you bid 4D. Note if partner bids 5D rather than 4C he is saying you
can't make slam so don't sit there wondering about it with a 17 count.
Quote:
Is a new suit by Responder a one-round force? Should it promise 5-card
length or just 4, or perhaps nothing more than a stopped suit in search
of a NT game? Should it matter if the new suit is a Major or a Minor
suit? 1D - (2H) - 2S or 1D - (3C) - 3S for example.
New suits are normally forcing and 5+ cards. If you have 4 cards in an
unbid major then double for T/O. If you play Double for penalties then you
have a problem whenever you have a good hand and no 5 card suit. |
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| Kieran Dyke |
| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:56 am |
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Inverted minors are completely irrelevant if 2m is not a sufficient bid.
Normal for 3D would be about 8-11 points (enough to hope to make, not enough
to force). This could be shaded a little with five card support, but four
card support is plenty for the bid - 1D in a five card major system will be
six more often than three. Over 2H, I wouldn't expect spades in the hand,
but over 3C a major is possible, especially if minimum.
Cue should be a game-forcing raise. Opener will often rebid 3NT with a
stopper, if that bid is sufficient. Over 3C, good raises with their eye on
3NT will bid 3NT if feasible, or perhaps double if not.
New suits show a minimum of five. Double should catch 4-4 fits. At the two
level, new suits might permit a stop in three of opener's minor, and perhaps
2NT and three of opener's major. New suits at the three level, which might
force 3NT on a misfitting minimum, are forcing to game.
Tiggrr
"Mike S." <marathon353@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1160054574.717045.220010@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote: My partner and I had trouble with the following two bidding sequences
in a recent Club game, and I could find very little in BWS about
responding to a minor-suit opening after an opponent's weak jump
overcall:
1D - (2H) - ?
1D - (3C) - ?
What strength and length should be promised with a minimum raise to 3D
in these sequences? Would the answer be different for partnerships
which play Inverted Minors (as mine does)?
I presume the standard meaning of a 2N response would be 10-12HCPs and
the opponent's suit stopped. 1D - (2H) - 2N.
Should cue-bidding the opponent's major suit ask Opener to rebid 3NT
with a Heart stopper? Or is it a game-invitational raise? For example,
1D - (2H) - 3H. What would the cue-bid of an opponent's minor suit
show? 1D - (3C) - 4C for example.
Is a new suit by Responder a one-round force? Should it promise 5-card
length or just 4, or perhaps nothing more than a stopped suit in search
of a NT game? Should it matter if the new suit is a Major or a Minor
suit? 1D - (2H) - 2S or 1D - (3C) - 3S for example.
Mike S.
Muncie, Indiana
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| Ronald J Koshoshek |
| Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:11 pm |
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The answers to your questions so far have all spelled out the so-called
"standard" response structure.
Increasingly more players, however, are regarding responses in a new suit as
non-forcing, showing 5+ cards and 5-11 pts of playing strength. Some agree
to use non-forcing new suit responses thru 2S; others through 3D.
Non-forcing new suit responses after overcalls also alter the meaning of the
negative double and follow-up bids. You may want to consider some of the
competitive advantages of non-forcing new suit responses to overcalls.
Non-forcing new suit responses do not change the meaning of a 2nt response,
a raise at the 3-;level at the 3 level, or the meaning of the cuebid which
is variable even within the so-called "standard" response structure.
--Ron
"Kieran Dyke" <tiggrr@idx.com.au> wrote in message news:45258d82@news1...
Quote: Inverted minors are completely irrelevant if 2m is not a sufficient bid.
Normal for 3D would be about 8-11 points (enough to hope to make, not
enough to force). This could be shaded a little with five card support,
but four card support is plenty for the bid - 1D in a five card major
system will be six more often than three. Over 2H, I wouldn't expect
spades in the hand, but over 3C a major is possible, especially if
minimum.
Cue should be a game-forcing raise. Opener will often rebid 3NT with a
stopper, if that bid is sufficient. Over 3C, good raises with their eye on
3NT will bid 3NT if feasible, or perhaps double if not.
New suits show a minimum of five. Double should catch 4-4 fits. At the two
level, new suits might permit a stop in three of opener's minor, and
perhaps 2NT and three of opener's major. New suits at the three level,
which might force 3NT on a misfitting minimum, are forcing to game.
Tiggrr
"Mike S." <marathon353@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1160054574.717045.220010@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
My partner and I had trouble with the following two bidding sequences
in a recent Club game, and I could find very little in BWS about
responding to a minor-suit opening after an opponent's weak jump
overcall:
1D - (2H) - ?
1D - (3C) - ?
What strength and length should be promised with a minimum raise to 3D
in these sequences? Would the answer be different for partnerships
which play Inverted Minors (as mine does)?
I presume the standard meaning of a 2N response would be 10-12HCPs and
the opponent's suit stopped. 1D - (2H) - 2N.
Should cue-bidding the opponent's major suit ask Opener to rebid 3NT
with a Heart stopper? Or is it a game-invitational raise? For example,
1D - (2H) - 3H. What would the cue-bid of an opponent's minor suit
show? 1D - (3C) - 4C for example.
Is a new suit by Responder a one-round force? Should it promise 5-card
length or just 4, or perhaps nothing more than a stopped suit in search
of a NT game? Should it matter if the new suit is a Major or a Minor
suit? 1D - (2H) - 2S or 1D - (3C) - 3S for example.
Mike S.
Muncie, Indiana
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| Andrew |
| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:26 am |
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On Oct 6, 2:11 am, "Ronald J Koshoshek" <r...@wwt.net> wrote:
Quote: The answers to your questions so far have all spelled out the so-called
"standard" response structure.
Increasingly more players, however, are regarding responses in a new suit as
non-forcing, showing 5+ cards and 5-11 pts of playing strength. Some agree
to use non-forcing new suit responses thru 2S; others through 3D.
This convention is known as "non-forcing freebids". I am not sure
whether the adjective "increasingly" to describe adoption is accurate.
Non-forcing freebids are not new; they have been discussed in print
since at least the early 1980's and yet they have not achieved
widespread acceptance among experts.
However, a minority of US experts do use them and they clearly show a
profit on some hands. But non-forcing freebids have shortcomings as
well and at least in the US, the expert consensus seems to be that the
shortcomings outweigh the benefits.
Quote: Non-forcing new suit responses after overcalls also alter the meaning of the
negative double and follow-up bids. You may want to consider some of the
competitive advantages of non-forcing new suit responses to overcalls.
Non-forcing new suit responses do not change the meaning of a 2nt response,
a raise at the 3-;level at the 3 level, or the meaning of the cuebid which
is variable even within the so-called "standard" response structure.
--Ron
"Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote in messagenews:45258d82@news1...
Inverted minors are completely irrelevant if 2m is not a sufficient bid.
Normal for 3D would be about 8-11 points (enough to hope to make, not
enough to force). This could be shaded a little with five card support,
but four card support is plenty for the bid - 1D in a five card major
system will be six more often than three. Over 2H, I wouldn't expect
spades in the hand, but over 3C a major is possible, especially if
minimum.
Cue should be a game-forcing raise. Opener will often rebid 3NT with a
stopper, if that bid is sufficient. Over 3C, good raises with their eye on
3NT will bid 3NT if feasible, or perhaps double if not.
New suits show a minimum of five. Double should catch 4-4 fits. At the two
level, new suits might permit a stop in three of opener's minor, and
perhaps 2NT and three of opener's major. New suits at the three level,
which might force 3NT on a misfitting minimum, are forcing to game.
Tiggrr
"Mike S." <marathon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1160054574.717045.220010@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
My partner and I had trouble with the following two bidding sequences
in a recent Club game, and I could find very little in BWS about
responding to a minor-suit opening after an opponent's weak jump
overcall:
1D - (2H) - ?
1D - (3C) - ?
What strength and length should be promised with a minimum raise to 3D
in these sequences? Would the answer be different for partnerships
which play Inverted Minors (as mine does)?
I presume the standard meaning of a 2N response would be 10-12HCPs and
the opponent's suit stopped. 1D - (2H) - 2N.
Should cue-bidding the opponent's major suit ask Opener to rebid 3NT
with a Heart stopper? Or is it a game-invitational raise? For example,
1D - (2H) - 3H. What would the cue-bid of an opponent's minor suit
show? 1D - (3C) - 4C for example.
Is a new suit by Responder a one-round force? Should it promise 5-card
length or just 4, or perhaps nothing more than a stopped suit in search
of a NT game? Should it matter if the new suit is a Major or a Minor
suit? 1D - (2H) - 2S or 1D - (3C) - 3S for example.
Mike S.
Muncie, Indiana |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:53 am |
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Andrew wrote:
Quote: On Oct 6, 2:11 am, "Ronald J Koshoshek" <r...@wwt.net> wrote:
The answers to your questions so far have all spelled out the so-called
"standard" response structure.
Increasingly more players, however, are regarding responses in a new suit as
non-forcing, showing 5+ cards and 5-11 pts of playing strength. Some agree
to use non-forcing new suit responses thru 2S; others through 3D.
This convention is known as "non-forcing freebids". I am not sure
whether the adjective "increasingly" to describe adoption is accurate.
Non-forcing freebids are not new; they have been discussed in print
since at least the early 1980's and yet they have not achieved
widespread acceptance among experts.
However, a minority of US experts do use them and they clearly show a
profit on some hands. But non-forcing freebids have shortcomings as
well and at least in the US, the expert consensus seems to be that the
shortcomings outweigh the benefits.
Having played negative free bids in a former Precision partnership,
here is my experience:
they work best at the 2 level, and work much much worse at the 1 and 3
levels. They work worse at the 3 level simply because there isn't
much space to manoever and because opener's rebid after a negative
double could easily preempt responder from showing his suit.
They work worse at the 1-level because there is usually enough room to
sort out responder's strength via a qbid, so having an unlimited
one-over-one in competition rarely hurts.
One way of getting the benefit of both nonforcing and forcing free bids
is to use 2NT as a transfer to clubs and 3C as a transfer to diamonds,
etc. Of course, that eliminates the ability to use 2NT as a raise (see
Robson-Segal) or as a natural value call, but I personally think the
ability to show suits in competition is far more useful. When
responder has support, he can show it in other ways, and if he is
balanced and misfitting, he can often make a negative double to express
his values.
Henrysun909 |
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| Michael Angelo Ravera |
| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:40 pm |
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Mike S. wrote:
Quote: My partner and I had trouble with the following two bidding sequences
in a recent Club game, and I could find very little in BWS about
responding to a minor-suit opening after an opponent's weak jump
overcall:
1D - (2H) - ?
1D - (3C) - ?
What strength and length should be promised with a minimum raise to 3D
in these sequences? Would the answer be different for partnerships
which play Inverted Minors (as mine does)?
The problem with opening 1m with a 4-trick range is that opponents can
preempt you out of your shoes with a major. Over 1D-(2H) you have
double, 2NT, 3D, and 3H available below 3NT. Majors give you more
flexibility and, as pointed out by others, since 2D isn't in the box
any longer, what you do without an overcall doesn't matter much. Now
you are stuck.
Over 1D-(2H) I usually use:
Double: 0-2 diamonds, 0-2 hearts, offering to play in one of the other
suits or to penalize opponents if they happen to have bid Opener's
suit. 8-12 for convenience (depending upon how aggressive you are in
opening shapely minor oriented hands)
2NT invitational, usually with at least a partial fit
3D competitive with a 4+ fit in diamonds, 8-12 with only 4-card
support. Perhaps less with better support.
3H: Strong, with an implict partial fit and no heart stop, offer to
play 3NT.
3NT: Offer to play, usually with a partial diamond fit and heart stop.
4D: Slam curious
4H: Asking for Aces, Controls, or Key Cards as agreed outside of hearts
5D: Preemptive, short in hearts, with a 5+card fit
Quote:
I presume the standard meaning of a 2N response would be 10-12HCPs and
the opponent's suit stopped. 1D - (2H) - 2N.
Should cue-bidding the opponent's major suit ask Opener to rebid 3NT
with a Heart stopper? Or is it a game-invitational raise? For example,
1D - (2H) - 3H. What would the cue-bid of an opponent's minor suit
show? 1D - (3C) - 4C for example.
Is a new suit by Responder a one-round force? Should it promise 5-card
length or just 4, or perhaps nothing more than a stopped suit in search
of a NT game? Should it matter if the new suit is a Major or a Minor
suit? 1D - (2H) - 2S or 1D - (3C) - 3S for example.
Mike S.
Muncie, Indiana |
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